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Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 5:15pm
R_P wrote: Don't excuse the candidates from their responsibility. Cute and meaningless. Just post another cartoon instead.

R_P

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Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 5:15pm
Steely_D wrote: Don't excuse the voters from their responsibility. Don't excuse the candidates from their responsibility.

Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 5:12pm

R_P wrote:

Or: "Whose fault is it if Trump becomes President again?

As Nader noted when it was argued that he "drained" votes and caused Bush to win (anyone remember that?): "Didnât more than 300,000 registered Democratic voters in Florida who voted for George W. Bush drain votes away from Mr. Gore?"
That is - if Trump becomes President again, it's really the fault of the people who didn't vote for Biden.

Don't excuse the voters from their responsibility.

R_P

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Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 4:59pm

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 4:27pm
Old news but even more relevant given today's circumstances. . Robert Gates seems to double down on claim that Biden's been wrong on top foreign policy issues for decades. . This is what everyone who voted for Biden knowingly voted for. Chaos in the world.

islander

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Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 4:07pm

haresfur wrote:

I very much doubt that. That's why it would be better imo not to threaten it but just "temporarily" suspend the aid. Never back anyone into a corner where taking a way out would be a major defeat.

I wouldn't do it publicly, but I would certainly delay any inbound equipment, or just send a big empty container with a note inside saying "Yo Benny, give me a call, we need to chat - Biden". We have all the leverage we need with them, we've used it before. I don't understand the reluctance to use it now.

R_P

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Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 4:07pm
You heard the dotard (again, on some comedy show). He's a rabid Zionist. Also, really doing "something" would be a bad election tactic. The loony right would have him for lunch. So it's a rock and a hard place of his own making.

haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 3:54pm

islander wrote:

The US may officially have limited sway, but if we said "stop indiscriminate bombing or we stop aid and military shipments" it would end this week. Linking it to Ukraine was stupid. The US position should be 2 states or 0 states, let us know if we should remove our diplomats.

I very much doubt that. That's why it would be better imo not to threaten it but just "temporarily" suspend the aid. Never back anyone into a corner where taking a way out would be a major defeat.

islander

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Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 3:34pm

haresfur wrote:

As I pointed out previously, The US only has limited sway over Israeli policy and Biden kind of backed himself into a corner linking aid to Israel with aid to Ukraine, but it was a no-win situation and he did it before the Israeli military action in Gaza began. It is obvious that Netanyahu doesn't give a fuck what the US wants, nor does Hamas. Diplomacy is weird stuff and unfortunately includes a lot of code words and signals. I think it would be appropriate at this point if the US abstained on a UN resolution calling for a cease fire. I mean the resolutions are just blowing smoke anyway.

At this point, If I were him, I'd keep the aid in the budget but suspend any delivery to backup US support for a two state solution. I mean, that wouldn't make anyone happy but no one is happy now. Probably the most important thing would be to sit down with the left wing of the party and try to get some backing given the whole shit-show and the even worse shit-show if Trump is elected.

Of course it would help if the republicans didn't keep trying to burn the country and the world down and started to help govern.

The US may officially have limited sway, but if we said "stop indiscriminate bombing or we stop aid and military shipments" it would end this week. Linking it to Ukraine was stupid. The US position should be 2 states or 0 states, let us know if we should remove our diplomats.

haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 3:01pm

rgio wrote:

There are issues with the Biden administration's support of Israel and the perception of cruelty directed at the Palestinians, but the election is still 8 months away.

By the time we get there, Israel will have new leadership, and the young angst directed toward the eternal unfairness in every system will focus on something/someone else. Could be Biden, but we'll have to wait.

The "uncommitted" vote yesterday was 13%. In 2012 when Obama ran for re-election, it was 11%. It's a concern, but it is way too soon to be called a problem. For or against anyone.

Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 12:55pm

Lazy8 wrote:

You're assuming near-omnipotent levels of GOP media and political manipulation, and you're turning people's genuine beliefs into some kind of conspiracy theory. They aren't that clever and they don't have the media influence/access to pull something like this off.

This is a factional fight on the left, a legitimate one. The Democratic Party is a loose coalition of interests and grievances, and this one is flexing. When a faction is small enough (Anti-vaxxers, TERFs, Tulsi Gabbard) they get ejected and wind up an uncomfortable side show under the conservative tent. I very much doubt we'll be seeing Rashida Tlaib at CPAC.

Now, since it's a real concern amongst many people, it's snowballed into something the media disseminates. That doesn't require media manipulation. It's in their nature to spread something like this around - and people with whom it resonates likewise make sure to keep it alive.
And there's no conspiracy about people's beliefs and understandings about what's going down there. I, too, look at the situation there and have my thoughts about how wrong it is. I'm surprised when people don't see it that way. That would be consensus, not conspiracy.

But the response to that is to take votes away from Biden in a presidential election when the result could be a Trump presidency?... What kind of strategy for positive change is that? Who came up with that bright idea?
â
Interesting seeing two different takes on the topic below: 1) it has legs and 2) the amount of undecided vote change is insignificant.

Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 12:48pm

steeler wrote:

Unlike the two referenced conspiracy theory campaigns aimed at Hilary and Obama, the âuncommittedâ vote campaign in Michigan as an expression of opposition to the Biden administration policy on Israel/Hamas/Palestine/Gaza is a real issue. It has legs.

Which is why it has legitimacy. I never said it wasn't a real issue that resonated, and those who are responding to it by saying, "I won't vote for Biden" of course haven't thought past what that means.

rgio

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 11:27am

Proclivities wrote:

From what I've read so far about the "uncommitted" campaign in some cities in Wayne Co., Michigan, it's that they are asking their constituents to vote for no one in the Presidential race - not asking them to vote for Trump.
If Republicans are carping about any of Biden's foreign-war policy, it's about the financial support for Ukraine. Republicans support the financial and materiel aid to Israel by a very large percentage, and some have even adamantly opposed any discussion of a cease fire.

Proclivities

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Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 10:17am

steeler wrote:

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 9:18am
Steely_D wrote: Now, the genesis of the “don’t vote for Biden because of Israel/Hamas/Palestine” was most likely from the same GOP team. This is 100% homegrown from within the democratic party. Period. End of story.

R_P

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Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 8:29am
Hofstadter strikes again.

Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 8:26am

Steely_D wrote:

I say something thatâs likely obvious: the GOP developed an attack plan against Hillary (âshe drinks the blood of babiesâ) and Obama (ânot an American citizenâ).

Factually weak. Inciteful commentary. Your opinion. And utterly irrelevant in 2024. Yet you mention it here because ... GOP is the boogeyman for anything not going your way.

Steely_D wrote:

Now, the genesis of the âdonât vote for Biden because of Israel/Hamas/Palestineâ was most likely from the same GOP team.

And, like the âdonât get a vaccineâ movement, people latched onto it because it touched a nerve in them and now itâs spreading of its own accord. With it being out in the media, and people having a legitimate strong feeling one way or the other, itâs impossible to unring that bell.

Laughable. In your opinion, are the 'from the river to the sea' protests the work of the GOP too? You may want to stay more up to date with the issue via the news.
Michiganâs uncommitted voters send loud message to Biden over Israel-Hamas war

Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 8:19am

Steely_D wrote:

I say something thatâs likely obvious: the GOP developed an attack plan against Hillary (âshe drinks the blood of babiesâ) and Obama (ânot an American citizenâ).
Now, the genesis of the âdonât vote for Biden because of Israel/Hamas/Palestineâ was most likely from the same GOP team.

And, like the âdonât get a vaccineâ movement, people latched onto it because it touched a nerve in them and now itâs spreading of its own accord. With it being out in the media, and people having a legitimate strong feeling one way or the other, itâs impossible to unring that bell.

steeler

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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 8:17am

Steely_D wrote:

Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male

Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 8:05am

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