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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 12:25pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
"I love the uneducated." ~ Trump


I have yet to find that exact quote by Trump any where.

Link please.
R_P

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Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 12:23pm

 Proclivities wrote:
I get his point (and yours) about the anti-establishment response but it seems unlikely that most of those who supported Obama's "change" platform are now supporting Trump - Sanders would be the more probable choice for them.  I was referring to the "different" anger coming from the Tea Party or birthers, or others who go on about wanting to "take their country back", which was different from the anger or disenchantment in 2008.
 
When I watched the Buckley Jr. vs. Vidal documentary the other day I noticed people were already saying that in the late 60s.
Proclivities

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Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 12:16pm

 sirdroseph wrote:

I don't think so.  I usually don't agree with Robert Reich, but I think he is spot on here and this has been building for some time:  

http://www.salon.com/2016/02/24/robert_reich_2016_is_the_beginning_of_the_end_of_the_establishment_partner/

 
I get his point (and yours) about the anti-establishment response but it seems unlikely that most of those who supported Obama's "change" platform are now supporting Trump - Sanders would be the more probable choice for them.  I was referring to the "different" anger coming from the Tea Party or birthers, or others who go on about wanting to "take their country back", which is coming from a different place than from the anger or disenchantment came from in 2008.
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 12:11pm

 steeler wrote:


Appealing to fear usually does not end well.

I hear a lot of promises from Trump as to how everyone is going to be happy with whatever it is he will do, that it will be great, and that America will  be great again and seen as winning. winning, and winning.

I have not done the deep dive that Kurster has done, so maybe there are more specifics on some of these issues.

But let me just throw out one example:  We know he is going to build not just a wall on the U.S./Mexican border, but a "great wall."  Ok.  But he also has repeatedly stated that he will get Mexico to pay for that great wall.  Has he explained how that is going to happen?              

 

 
I would just like to say that there is a difference between fear and anger, a big difference.  While both are emotions, the responses to the two are different.  Fear cancels rational thinking.  While anger can do the same, it can also cause one to become focused and energized.

I take the bolded as a metaphor.  He will get it back in a reduced trade deficit and or with the tariffs he talks about.  It nets out the same.  Or he can threaten to take us out of NAFTA.  There are many ways to accomplish that.


R_P

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Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 12:09pm

Mutual admiration society...

"You inspire us all"

sirdroseph

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Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 12:01pm

 Proclivities wrote:

In general, i seems like many different people are pissed off now, for very different reasons.

 
I don't think so.  I usually don't agree with Robert Reich, but I think he is spot on here and this has been building for some time: 

 

http://www.salon.com/2016/02/24/robert_reich_2016_is_the_beginning_of_the_end_of_the_establishment_partner/


Proclivities

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Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 11:51am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

...ha.   remember what the buzz was like around Obama in the last election. "Yes, we can!"
His whole platform was about change and people bought into because a whole lot of people were really pissed off then. A whole lot of people are still pissed off now...
 
In general, it seems like many different people are pissed off now, for very different reasons.
sirdroseph

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Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 11:47am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

ha.   remember what the buzz was like around Obama in the last election. "Yes, we can!"
His whole platform was about change and people bought into because a whole lot of people were really pissed off then. A whole lot of people are still pissed off now.

Trump is playing exactly the same cheap trick with a more gung-ho street attitude and, for exactly the same reasons.  I bet he wins the election. Which leaves us with a few basic scenarios:

1. Either he gets just as handbound by the entrenched power structures that make up Washington as just about every other president and in the end doesn't change a damn thing OR
2. he does manage to get some power which he abuses the office for cronyism and to fill his own pockets and is generally as uninterested in bringing about real change as anyone else who likes filling their pockets from an open till OR
3. he does become as rabid as his jingoist campaigning suggests and does a kind of Hitler thing in 1933 on us. Finds scapegoats, stirs up wars, keeps everyone's attention on other things
pours a shitload of money into the military and public spending (which he can't actually fund without invading somewhere) and all hell breaks loose.

At this stage I think the former is by far the more likely scenario. But I don't really want to be around if he makes good on his election promises. The saddest thing is that all the "little people" in favour of him now are just going to get shafted whatever the outcome. plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

 
I agree except for one key point, I don't think he is going to win.  Clinton will win and fulfill either 1 or 2 and possibly 3 regarding the military part anyway.  And the beat goes on.......


NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 11:45am

 Steely_D wrote:

Well that's some pretty direct pandering. Of course, how're they gonna be offended? They'll just be complimented.

Remember the nation has a pretty big bottom of the Bell Curve. After two terms of an educated, even-tempered minority President - it's time for the other folks to run the nation.

 
ha.   remember what the buzz was like around Obama in the last election. "Yes, we can!"
His whole platform was about change and people bought into because a whole lot of people were really pissed off then. A whole lot of people are still pissed off now.

Trump is playing exactly the same cheap trick with a more gung-ho street attitude and, for exactly the same reasons.  I bet he wins the election. Which leaves us with a few basic scenarios:

1. Either he gets just as handbound by the entrenched power structures that make up Washington as just about every other president and in the end doesn't change a damn thing OR
2. he does manage to get some power which he abuses the office for cronyism and to fill his own pockets and is generally as uninterested in bringing about real change as anyone else who likes filling their pockets from an open till OR
3. he does become as rabid as his jingoist campaigning suggests and does a kind of Hitler thing in 1933 on us. Finds scapegoats, stirs up wars, keeps everyone's attention on other things
pours a shitload of money into the military and public spending (which he can't actually fund without invading somewhere) and all hell breaks loose.

At this stage I think the former is by far the more likely scenario. But I don't really want to be around if he makes good on his election promises. The saddest thing is that all the "little people" in favour of him now are just going to get shafted whatever the outcome. plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 11:17am

 Red_Dragon wrote:
"I love the uneducated." ~ Trump

 
Well that's some pretty direct pandering. Of course, how're they gonna be offended? They'll just be complimented.

Remember the nation has a pretty big bottom of the Bell Curve. After two terms of an educated, even-tempered minority President - it's time for the other folks to run the nation.


rotekz

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Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 10:41am

 black321 wrote:

Yes, I am brilliant.  Thank you. 

 
I thought so.
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 10:40am

 rotekz wrote: 
Yes, I am brilliant.  Thank you. 
rotekz

rotekz Avatar



Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 10:37am

 black321 wrote:
 Perhaps the larger issue is his open narcissism.  All candidates are probably to a certain extent narcissists.  But Trump is open and embraces his narcissism (as he did in his career), which somehow his supporters find endearing and honest.

 
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/139910704581/how-to-spot-a-narcissist-trump-persuasion-series
R_P

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Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 9:41am

 rotekz wrote:
America’s new elites, fancying themselves superior to the rural, the old, the religiously inclined and the rest, have increasingly turned politics into something that is done to people, for their own good, rather than by people according to their moral outlook. And then they wonder why people go looking for something else, something less sneering.
 
Because nothing quite says "anti-elitism" like a brash, "beholden to none", Ivy League billionaire...

PS: Reminds me of Murdoch's "anti-elitist" cash cows.
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 9:40am

Anger seems like just one angle he plays.  Perhaps the larger issue is his open narcissism.  All candidates are probably to a certain extent narcissists.  But Trump is open and embraces his narcissism (as he did in his career), which somehow his supporters find endearing and honest.

I've seen the same trend throughout the business community...embracing characters like Trump.  The movie Wall Street has the villain Gordon Gekko, and i think most viewers perceived him as a villain when the movie came out in the 80s.  But today, Gekko is more a hero than villain.  He's somehow a harmless character, just doing what's in his best interest. 
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 9:22am

 steeler wrote:


Appealing to fear usually does not end well.

 

 
nope.. just a little bit of history repeating
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 9:18am

or this one in the Guardian
rotekz

rotekz Avatar



Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 9:14am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

Trump is mining a rich vein of anger and frustration. Can't say that I am that surprised.

 
This blog by Brendan O'Neill is a great read on the subject.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/from-trumpmania-to-euroscepticism-revenge-of-the-plebs/



America’s new elites, fancying themselves superior to the rural, the old, the religiously inclined and the rest, have increasingly turned politics into something that is done to people, for their own good, rather than by people according to their moral outlook. And then they wonder why people go looking for something else, something less sneering.



NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 9:12am

 DaveInVA wrote:

And this would be different than Clinton how?

 
Probably not at all.. as I said, I am not the least surprised that people are angry, globally, because the last thirty years have seen the greatest increase in wealth the world has ever known and 90% or more of the population EDIT: in mature economies /EDIT have seen their real wealth actually fall over the same time.. We should all be angry but nobody seems to have any solutions.. and to be honest Trump doesn't either. He's just mining this vein of discontent to advance his own position. His entire past reeks of it. But he is not going to deliver any more than any of the others have.


steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 24, 2016 - 9:11am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

I think you are on the money here Kurtster. Trump is mining a rich vein of anger and frustration. Can't say that I am that surprised.

But, unlike you, I am not sure about the constructive part of his policy if he actually does get elected. Anger can be a positive force for change, but what exactly is his program? How is he going to help his fan base exactly? Or is he just going to help his closest cronies with yet more shady deals and end up ripping off the country who elected him?

 

Appealing to fear usually does not end well.

I hear a lot of promises from Trump as to how everyone is going to be happy with whatever it is he will do, that it will be great, and that America will  be great again and seen as winning. winning, and winning.

I have not done the deep dive that Kurster has done, so maybe there are more specifics on some of these issues.

But let me just throw out one example:  We know he is going to build not just a wall on the U.S./Mexican border, but a "great wall."  Ok.  But he also has repeatedly stated that he will get Mexico to pay for that great wall.  Has he explained how that is going to happen?              

 
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